Alnico VS. Ceramic...

rompo420 · 08-25-2010, 12:26 AM

Can someone PLEASE elaborate in detail on what some of the major OBVIOUS differences are between the two??

I have a few questions: If they measure the same on a meter, is the output the same???

Also, are the major differences TONAL differences????

Thank You ALL in advance!!!!

Jeff

iWishIcouldPlay · 08-25-2010, 02:22 AM

Thanks for starting this post. I have been wondering the same thing.

dannyvawn · 08-25-2010, 08:39 AM

Ceramics have a magnet that runs across the bottom of the pickup.
Ceramics to me sound dull, like there is something missing. A lot of people here use them but I always change them out. I'm assuming output is output but i'm not an expert. There is just something lacking. Also, if they weren't the cheapest these cheap guitars companies wouldn't use them.

dannyvawn · 08-25-2010, 08:40 AM

And before i'm flamed, I'm not saying they are a bad pickup, i'm just saying there are better.

FresnoKiwi · 08-25-2010, 11:28 AM

Alnico stands for Al (aluminum) Ni (Nickel) Co (Colt). The alloy can be made magnetic, a property of Iron. The alloy can vary or be varied depending on the mix of metals thus creating different variants of ALNICO magnet. They are also magnetically much stronger than iron magnets. Variant run 1 through 5 as rule.
Ceramic is also man made but with an iron base and are also stronger than pure iron magnets. Ceramic is a misnomer, they are metal. They are cheap to manufacture and mostly go into speaker magnets, elec motors, industrial apps etc.. Ceramic is not known for its tonal qualities and many prefer ALNICO for this reason.
The magnetic field created by the magnet in the pickup is pulled and distorted by the vibrating ferrous (iron) string. (A pickup with its stationary magnet and vibrating string is the opposite of a generator) It's this interplay and resulting field disturbance that provides the signal to the amp.
With electric guitars you really are playing the magnet's field and the amp more than anything else. The guitar is essentially a platform for holding all the working parts together and provide a good bench to adjust string length and thereby vibration rate.
That's one reason less expensive guitars like Squires run so well. Electrics have gotten cheap over the years and cheap amp today can still decent. Provided the guitar is basically solid and true and computerized manufacturing helps here, even cheap electric can work.
A decently setup Squire with aftermarket mods like ALNICO 5 high-end pups, a decent bridge, pots and machine heads and you have a good cheap gat, couple this with a good amp (preferably tubes/valves) and who can tell the differance.
I did this with $200 Chinese Dean bass by putting in US made Music Man pups. Plays nice and through an Ampeg it sounds killer for a fraction of what a comparable off the shelf bass would cost.

weelie · 08-25-2010, 11:52 AM

This is often quoted:
http://www.billlawrence.com/Pages/Pi...gy/magnets.htm

peskypesky · 08-25-2010, 02:45 PM

my observations:
ceramics are more powerful
ceramics have a harsh high end, almost brittle
alnicos lower output but more well-rounded tone

that being said, there are really good ceramics and also bad alnicos.

edandis · 08-25-2010, 08:53 PM

Ceramics are considered inferior because they always come packaged in the lower end models, their quality varies from mfg. to mfg so they're not altogether inferior to Alnico's.

Someone brought up the subject that Lace gold sensors are ceramic and they are highly regarded pups. just to state an example.

OleFudd · 08-25-2010, 09:02 PM

I always see reference to Alnico, Alnico 3 and 5's. How about a quick explanation of the differences.
Interesting thread, I've been intending on asking the same question.

softwarejanitor · 08-25-2010, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peskypesky

my observations:
ceramics are more powerful
ceramics have a harsh high end, almost brittle
alnicos lower output but more well-rounded tone

that being said, there are really good ceramics and also bad alnicos.

I pretty much completely agree with this...

I'd also say the cheaper the ceramics are the more likely they are to have the harsh shrillness you are talking about.

ratdog472 · 08-29-2010, 08:00 PM

Blatantly ripped off from another site (gibson references retained for examples):

The II thru V Alnico numbering system is used to indicate the specific alloy each type of Alnico magnet is composed of. Alnico stands for ALuminum, NIckel, and CObalt. Other than iron (which comprises about 50% of all Alnico magnets), these are the main metals used in Alnico magnets – plus all grades but Alnico IV have a bit of copper in them too. And, interestingly, Alnico III contains no cobalt. So, we see the recipe for each Alnico grade is different, with the ratio of metals in each alloy varying quite a bit.

Magnetic flux is measured in Gauss – this is an indication of how strong a magnet is capable of being. Magnetic field intensity is measured in Oersteds. Technically speaking, the strength of a magnet is best measured as an approximate combined product of the Gauss and Oersteds. This is somewhat analogous to how electrical power in Watts is the product of Volts and Amps (Volts x mA = Watts). For instance, 40 mA at 250 volts (40 x .250) produces 10 watts per tube, and the same 40 mA at 500 volts (40 x .500) produces 20 watts. So, when considering magnetic strength, ultimately, both gauss and oersteds are factors. Yet, I’ll keep the scope of this article to follow to the more commonly used measurement gauss.

Alnico III actually possesses the weakest gauss of all commonly used Alnico magnets – less than Alnico II, IV and V. That said, you can still have an Alnico V magnet that’s weaker than an Alnico II magnet, because magnets aren’t always fully charged. Yet, Alnico V has the capacity to hold a stronger magnetic charge than Alnico II, III or IV. A weaker a magnet lowers the resonant peak and a stronger magnet will increase the resonant peak and brightness audible to the ear.

Following is some data regarding accurate gauss meter readings on approx 80 Alnico magnets. The magnets checked were Alnico II, IV and V – both polished and rough cast had the following readings:

New Alnico II magnets measured at gauss levels ranging from 22 to a high of 35, with most in the 25 to 30 range. Alnico IV magnets ranged from 22 to a high of 36, with most in the 32 to 35 range. The Alnico V magnets tested were all from older Gibson “T-top” pickups – 20+ years old, and these all measured in the 25 to 30 gauss range, with most reading 25 to 27 gauss. So, interestingly, older “T-top” pickups show moderate gauss level readings for Alnico V. Gibson pickup magnet gauss readings, on both Alnico II and V magnets, consistently averaged 25 to 30 gauss on the late-‘50s thru the early-‘70s guitars.

A Burstbucker Alnico II rough cast magnet had the most consistent reading along it’s edges than all the other magnets tested, with a gauss level of 25. I was expecting to see a gauss range that defined the different grades, but there were some unexpected results. Alnico V magnets of the “T-top” era had notably lower than expected readings. And, except for the Burstbucker magnet, all the magnets were stronger towards one end of the magnet. This could possibly have tonal implication on magnet orientation in the pickup. Conversely, newly recharged Alnico II magnets in testing spiked out higher towards the center of the magnet.

The type of magnet in a pickup can have more impact on tone than winding resistance when dealing with modest ohm variations of 1 – 2k. You can have a humbucker reading 9k with an output approaching a single-coil. And, conversely have a Humbucker reading 7.5k that sounds like a typical “hotter” wound pickup, as we see with some of the Alnico V magnet pickups of the Gibson “T-top” era. Output and tone depends as much on magnets as winding types, not to mention everything else in the chain like pots, caps, etc.

So, the actual pickup tone type is highly dependant on the magnet and the resistance/windings, as a pickup with a dead magnet will produce 0% output! Additionally, long magnets (PAF-style) are a bit punchier and have better definition than the short magnets, which can sometimes produce a slightly “smeared” sound. Though magnet type can compensate for this, as Alnico V’s additional output, punch and brightness balanced out the shorter magnet size Gibson used beginning 1961.

Additionally, the stud side of the coil actually has slightly more output than the adjustable side on a traditional humbucker. There is a direct connection to the magnet inside the pickup on the stud side, while the adjustable pole extends out the bottom of the pickup. And, there is a slight loss of magnetic field and energy out the bottom of the pickup.

ratdog472 · 09-01-2010, 01:24 AM

I am such a thread killer.

peskypesky · 09-01-2010, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratdog472

I am such a thread killer.

lol. don't be so hard on yerself.

rompo420 · 09-01-2010, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peskypesky

lol. don't be so hard on yerself.

It's really funny, pesky....the other day a friend of mine at work was talking about a bullet he wanted.

I was like yeah, you should totally get one and then told him about how the PUPS are ok but they can be upgraded.

He proceeded to send me your video of your sons bullet that you were playing blues with-just to prove to me how badass a bullet can sound!

I was delighted to tell him "Yeah, I've actually spoken to the maker of that video."

Just thought that was funny!

richieryan · 09-02-2010, 12:26 AM

What I noticed when I ditched the stock ceramics in my SE for GFS vintage alnicos was much more sensitive to pick attack. The tone seems more alive and organic.

peskypesky · 09-02-2010, 12:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rompo420

It's really funny, pesky....the other day a friend of mine at work was talking about a bullet he wanted.

I was like yeah, you should totally get one and then told him about how the PUPS are ok but they can be upgraded.

He proceeded to send me your video of your sons bullet that you were playing blues with-just to prove to me how badass a bullet can sound!

I was delighted to tell him "Yeah, I've actually spoken to the maker of that video."

Just thought that was funny!

that's crazy!!

and yeah, every time i listen to that track, i wonder why i "upgraded" the pickups on my other two Bullets when the stock ones can sound so good.

it's too bad i'll never play that particular Bullet again. i left my girlfriend on July 1st. moved out, got my own pad and no looking back. the world's best Bullet will collect dust in my ex's son's closet....

edandis · 09-02-2010, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peskypesky

that's crazy!!

and yeah, every time i listen to that track, i wonder why i "upgraded" the pickups on my other two Bullets when the stock ones can sound so good.

it's too bad i'll never play that particular Bullet again. i left my girlfriend on July 1st. moved out, got my own pad and no looking back. the world's best Bullet will collect dust in my ex's son's closet....

You've got some great material for a blues song now. J/K

At least now you can buy as many guitars as you want, or can afford.

adamjn · 09-28-2010, 12:37 PM

I recently picked up a MIM HSS strat that has a set Mighty Mite pickups in it. I assume the two singles are ceramic, though I haven't looked as of yet. I'd put these in the "really good ceramic" category. While not as bright as Alnicos, I hear a lot of string to string definition, a warm, powerful tone, and mostly tonal--not volume--differences when I switch to the bridge HB. I keep looking at D Allen and GFS, but I keep coming back to the idea that if I'm happy with the tone, why mess with it?

rompo420 · 10-03-2010, 02:17 PM

can anyone explain to me the "weird, target-like" circles on the polepieces of my affinity strat???

is that a particular pickup unique to the affinity, or what???

hunter rose IV · 12-12-2010, 12:55 PM

i've had experiances w/both ceramic and alnico...
i had a set of alnico III's in my pro-tone strat...and that thing was BRIGHT,as in shatter your eardrums bright.i had it checked out by at least 3 different techs who said,well that's just the way they are.i couldn't dial that out of the guitar or the amp...so out they went(still have them)and i put in a set of ceramics from a strat pickguard i pulled from a parts bin for 10 bucks...

night and day difference,the strat became so warm,and punchy...no shrill high end anymore...

oh,and i discovered if your ceramic pickups are a bit too harsh on the high end,shield the pickup cavity w/copper foil tape...and it warms up nicely.

thom

Brewski · 12-12-2010, 01:07 PM

output isn't necessary the point - tone is.

Like posts earlier - there is a difference in tone/edge depending on the magnet.

Ceramic pickups are typically edgier and are tougher to clean up - for clean tones without sounding raspy. you can dial it out but it still has a bit of pinch.

Alnico pickups sound SWEETER (tonally) and seem to embrace the right harmonics (2nd, 4th, 8th, 16th) versus ceramic which tends to catch all the harmonics even the odd ones.

thinking like AMPS - Ceramics sound more Solid Stateish and Alnicos sound more Tubeish.

With that said some ceramic pups sound great and especially in the bridge pickup of a Tele. I would never put one in the neck though - wouldn't sing.

korean_squires89 · 12-13-2010, 12:16 PM

Just picked up a SQ193XX 3 Bolt neckplate with Fender Japan and Microtilt adjust./70's Headstock/Bullet Trussrod/Alnico/Made in Japan tuners/Rosewood neck- SQUIER STRAT. Now I understand the Hype, the playability is better than all my (5) Strats (USA FENDER ,KOREA SQUIER, CV 50'S, AND 60'S. It has that beautiful breakup attack, while maintaining this "mellow warm" tone....i just love it, and best yet pawn shop didn't know what they had and picked it up for $240

I think its neat to own a piece of Squier/Fender History, as these were the "first Squiers ever available for the USA, says Dan Smith. They were a 72' reissue and hit the market in Fall of 83, to an instant success" - form the book "The Fender Stratocaster by A.R. Duchossoir" Anyone else have one, and love it too? Do you think I got a good price? thanks everyone love this site.

dmitri · 12-13-2010, 01:03 PM

Yea, there are good ceramics and bad ceramics, good alnicos and bad alnicos. One is not really better, though I certainly have my preferences.

Alnicos tend towards vintagey tones more, particularly 50s/60s/70s classic rock, blues, and country stuff. I have played some REALLY nice ceramics that sounded killer for harder edged 80s rock, though, and one of my favorite humbucker sets (Gutiarheads zBucker - $50) is ceramic. Don't use em much, but they remind me of the Jazz/JB set by Duncan without the icepick high end.

So depends on what you want...

peskypesky · 12-13-2010, 02:20 PM

i honestly think that ceramics are good if you play with a lot of distortion, fuzz and other effects. i played for years in punk/indie bands and never once thought about switching to alnicos. but now that i play clean or with just a bit of overdrive, the alnicos work better for me.

mechanic1908 · 01-21-2011, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edandis

Ceramics are considered inferior because they always come packaged in the lower end models, their quality varies from mfg. to mfg so they're not altogether inferior to Alnico's.

Someone brought up the subject that Lace gold sensors are ceramic and they are highly regarded pups. just to state an example.

The Dimarzio super distortion's in my Vox std. 24 have ceramic magnets too if I'm not mistaken and they sound crazy good!

captcoolaid · 02-09-2011, 12:33 PM

What some do not realize is that there are now A6, A7, A8 and what is called a super 8. I have never come across the super 8 or had any desire to, and there are now 2 different Ceramics being mass produced. The regular one and a ceramic 8. I do not use any of the ceramics as it takes away any of the natural tone of the wind. Some will say that the A8 gives you the actual sound of the wind while A5s give you a mid scoop. Now we are currently experimenting with the A6 mag and I got to tell ya we are liking them a lot. They give the mids of the A5 with the attack of an A8. Gauss is also very important when selecting a mag. These are just a few things. I hope I added to this and did not derail.

captcoolaid · 02-09-2011, 12:44 PM

I would question the gauss readings as my supplier and many others have stated that an A5 fully saturated reads at or around 973. 25 - 30 seems a bit low. It is also important to not that an Alnico class mag will only lose +-5% of its charge over 100 years, while a not fully7 saturated mag will decrease much quicker.

jimbojo · 02-09-2011, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by captcoolaid

What some do not realize is that there are now A6, A7, A8 and what is called a super 8. I have never come across the super 8 or had any desire to, and there are now 2 different Ceramics being mass produced. The regular one and a ceramic 8. I do not use any of the ceramics as it takes away any of the natural tone of the wind. Some will say that the A8 gives you the actual sound of the wind while A5s give you a mid scoop. Now we are currently experimenting with the A6 mag and I got to tell ya we are liking them a lot. They give the mids of the A5 with the attack of an A8. Gauss is also very important when selecting a mag. These are just a few things. I hope I added to this and did not derail.

So Cap'n are the A6, A7 and A8 you are refering to are AlNico? That is cool, but I am curious about the mid scoop statement, is that a quality of the magnet or the wind, I had always asumed wind because many AlNico V pups have different tonal qualities. Also, do you sell your pups commercially and if so do you have any sound clips
Thanks,
Jimbo

captcoolaid · 02-09-2011, 05:16 PM

I have found both to be true. The A5 definitely brings the mids out more then say a 2 or 4. I am really liking the A3 necks by various winders as the addition of copper enhances the higher end voice in some of the new winds. I have also been doing some hotter neck single in 7.8k range with an A2 and am really liking them. Right now I am useing a 20k my wind with another winders A5 5.8k in the neck. I do not use the middle position. But the Squier which I am doing now is Basswood which is a great tone wood. I will be converting it to an HSS with a set of my winds. Iwill post pics of the build as well as specs and a clip or 2.

I will be in a month or so. I will have to talk to the powers that be and put the site in my sig. I am here as a huge fan of these guitars which get little respect at other sites not for my business practices. I will post clips but only as I mod a new one I am NOT trying to sell here.

OlderEveryday · 02-09-2011, 05:20 PM

I have Great alnico magnet pickups.

I have Great ceramic magnet pickups.

Actually, to be more accurate, Fantastic in Both.

You'll not find me beating one horse to ride the other.

A Well Designed and Thought Out... and Tested, pickup is just that, whether Ceramic or Alnico.

Just the thoughts of an Old Guy who still has a set of ears above the average (frequency response sensitivity-wise as per mandatory testing) For His Age who received his first guitar in 1958, first electric in 1966.

And for the record, one of the Mellowest Sets is a Ceramic set specifically designed to catch filtertron. Arctec, Korea. Clarity + Mellow. My favorite in the filtertonesque pantheon. And I had Vintage Gretsches when they weren't.

Just My Humble (well, not really so) Opinion.

captcoolaid · 02-09-2011, 05:25 PM

Nice. I never said anything bad about ceramics they have their place.
Jim Wagner at WCR winds an Iron Man set that reads 24k with ceramics and they sound great, I just prefer the A8 to the ceramic for that style of pup. After all it is completely subjective.

captcoolaid · 02-09-2011, 06:48 PM

I did some digging on the whole gauss thing and the readings which I originally thought were low. 25 -50 when my meter reads them at 400- 1200. We were both right. There are other methods of determining gauss. I had no idea. I learned something new today.

This is why I love these discussions.

Telepicker · 02-09-2011, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brewski

Alnico pickups sound SWEETER (tonally) and seem to embrace the right harmonics (2nd, 4th, 8th, 16th) versus ceramic which tends to catch all the harmonics even the odd ones.

thinking like AMPS - Ceramics sound more Solid Stateish and Alnicos sound more Tubeish.

Wow, this is a great revelation, thanks. That nails why I didn't care for the ceramics in my Strat. I would describe the sound as too full, as if overdriving the amp. I'm going to try some Alnicos in that guitar.